Once I finally got this unruly lot to get onto the actual topic of the evening (that took about an hour), the question we considered was “how do we decide or judge what is right or wrong?”, and the answers boiled down to a surprisingly simple set of ideas (for the record, all the other bits and bobs we discussed were also wonderfully interesting):
1) Does doing this (having an affair, stealing, lying, whatever) make an accurate statement of Who I Am? Does it express a grander version of myself and who I aspire to be?
2) Am I prepared to accept the consequences of this action?
3) If I be still and listen to my heart, my feelings will tell me the truth. Call it conscience or whatever you want, in reality if we are prepared to admit it the fact is we “know” darn well whether or not what we are doing is right by listening to our own heart.
So there you have it. Another of the great questions of life the universe and everything solved for you all.
February 29, 2008 at 8:18 am |
“To Thine Own Heart Be True”
It has been written “to judge not least we be judged”. If by our Will, we judge something as ‘wrong’, then turn around and do it, then by our own decree we are ‘guilty’. We are both law giver and keeper of the law of our personal domains.
BUT…
If by our Will we qualify something as dumb, the turn around and do it, then by our decree, we’re just a half wit.
Now you know why I often introduce myself as a Complete Idiot.
February 29, 2008 at 8:46 am |
Sue,
LOL. I have been reading your various posts and comments recently but have been unable to give a thoughtful response as I am currently really flat out at work. I must admit that you are miles and miles ahead of me in your thinking so I have quite a challenge grasping what you’re saying some of the time. Don’t forget that I’m just a “junior New-Ager” who is just poking his head in the door and having a bit of a loook around.
Peace,
Jon
March 1, 2008 at 6:19 am |
You’re doing GREAT in opening your Heart ! All things go in cycles; there is a natural rhythm to Life. We breath in, we breath out. There are times when our focus in inward; there are times when our focus is outward. There is time to plant, time to nurture, time to harvest and time to rest.
It doesn’t surprise me you’re occupied at work. We’re ALL going through shifts concerning business and occupations right now, Worldwide. It is a time of new beginnings. It is also a time of Spiritual Spring. We are through with our Spiritual Winter.
I also really question something which may surprise you. I question our use of the phrase “new age”. According to timing, the actual occurrence of the “Age of Aquarius” isn’t for another couple 100 years. So maybe…what we’re experiencing right now is really the fruition of the “Piscean Age”…seeds that were planted roughly 2000 years ago are just now coming to fruition? Maybe the only thing that’s really ch?
We don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
We don’t have to demolish our old house. Just bring it up to date. Breath new life into it. Like…
Rejuvenation.
(and I think I did pretty good getting to all the great questions you asked…right in the middle of moving my household. rofl)
March 1, 2008 at 6:22 am |
typo…maybe the only thing that’s really changed is that now we’re beginning to understand what Jesus meant when he said what he did?
March 1, 2008 at 6:55 am |
It’s real simple…it’s NOT about getting it ‘right’. It’s about our relationship with what we deem ‘wrong’. ‘Mistakes’ can be corrected. We can learn from them. Most importantly, we can learn that we CAN LEARN.
Where ’sins’ are, well, suppose to be intrinsic to our nature. Like playing a crap game with loaded dice. Saddled with urges and tendencies beyond our ability to govern and understand, the outcome of the game predetermined but we’re to play anyway and pay for all of it along the way.
The perspective is different between “mistake” and “sin”. One is embracing, the other, rejecting. Which ever perspective I take, it still doesn’t mean I intend to do it. All it means is if I choose to value Understanding or Condemnation. We tried the Condemnation route already. It didn’t work. That’s means it isn’t practical. So why don’t we try Understanding instead?
We all make mistakes.
We’re not ‘evil’.
Just dumb.
March 2, 2008 at 3:21 am |
The concept of right and wrong rests with each individual. In many ways there is no such thing as right or wrong, everything is as it should be often for reasons that we do not comprehend at the moment.
March 4, 2008 at 10:17 pm |
I agree with tobeme. We as individuals have our own set of principles, values, and morals that hinder what we would consider “right” or “wrong”. I don’t believe there is one single moral/human truth that all of us could agree on. For example – I may say “Murder is wrong and unacceptable.” and you may agree, but we may differ in opinions if I said “Harming another person in self defense is just and acceptable.” Right and wrong are all just a matter of opinion, beliefs, and upbringing.
March 5, 2008 at 2:26 pm |
The ONLY question each of us decides is:
WHAT experience in life would I like to have?
All the rest of our musings are irrelevant. There is NO ‘right and wrong’ from the perspective of Spirit which embraces all and everything, It’s simply when we’cve forgotten WHOM we are, we place a lot of importance and meaning on what is essentially DUST. If it came from the earth it will return to the earth and it is ever so much wiser to remind ourselves that when we get all caught up in issues of our dust.
March 5, 2008 at 9:27 pm |
Sue Ann,
Yes! So much emphasis on what I am doing, so easy to overlook or even forget who I am being. I am flat-tack maxed out at work at the moment (contract IT support with lots of difficult technical problems to solve and lots of expectations on me tha tthings will all be working by such and such a date) So easy to get swept up with the activity of the dust and forget that it’s all just energy, and that the whole reason I have a dust component at all is so the soul may experience itself.
Tomorrow (a new day) I will be more aware of who I am being in the midst of my doing.
Jon
March 5, 2008 at 9:32 pm |
ToBeMe, Mandy,
I’m finding the statement “there is no right and wrong” a little misleading, as for me and everyone else there are things that are right and things that are wrong. So I take that statement to mean “there is nothing intrinsically right or wrong” (or good or bad). Things and events are in themselves just things and events. To say something is inherently wrong or evil is nonsense because the same people who would say this are usually the same people that will also loudly maintain that God created everything. Huh? Gos created something that is inherently evil? A tree falling, a bomb exploding, a galaxy collapsing into a black hole. Events, just events. What they mean is what we choose to make them mean. If you choose to label it “good” then fine, go ahead. If you choose to label it “bad” then fine, go ahead. Create your reality as you choose.
Jon
March 5, 2008 at 10:13 pm |
SueAnn => You’re right – there is no “Right or Wrong”, “Left or Right” from the Spirit’s perspective, however as our society is there IS a “Right and Wrong” and maybe I’ve been mislead – but our morals, expectations, values, and goverment laws are based on the Christian faith? The experience I would like to have is of everything that’s possiable. I’ve always repeated the motto “Everything happens for a reason, because there is a lesson to be learned.” Regardless – I love the way you explained this topic. I’ve been following your blog, that’s how I found Jon’s blog.
Jon=> I agree! I believe that was what I was trying to say in my first post. There is no ONE moral truth (right or wrong). It just is and will always be. Love your blog. =0)
March 5, 2008 at 10:37 pm |
[...] I’ve really enjoyed his blog which I found through Sueann’s. [Always Embrace Always]. Jon’s newest discussion is similar to my question on Moral Truth [ On Human/Moral Truth ] Jon posted: “How do we [...]
March 9, 2008 at 9:24 am |
Actually {{Manda}} you are incorrect. We may IMAGINE it is like you said with our morality, yet this morality we speak of is actually ANTI anything Christ-like.
It is by our beliefs that we define our Values in Life. What these Values are. It also defines HOW we will pursue these values, the MEANS.
Our ‘moral’ code as you call minute free choice is negated, no “morality” is possible, only amorality. What with all the conditions placed on being Loved that most of the doctrine and dogmas have touted, no free choice is possible, for rejection is the punishment for not meeting conditions. No free choice, since fear of rejection manipulates decisions using an emotional force of condemnation. So the first thing to realize is that what you are calling a “moral” code, ISN’T.
The next thing to realize are the values Chosen by the code. The code in operation values (or Loves, for to Love is to Value)…being ‘right’. This is self righteousness. A ‘morality based on self righteousness’. Now notice the means used to live this morality. Notice the use of FORCE i part and parcel of the code, whether it’s physical, mental or emotional.
Instead of Justice being an operation of cause and effect, as it is with Universal law, it is a system of manipulation based on what a group considers ‘right’.
Nope. Nothing about it qualifies as anything Christ-like at all.
“Always embraces all ways” Happy AND sad. Good AND bad. IT’s ALL experience, we are ALIVE to have! Each moment is a Present. A Gift. Mistakes are not cause for rejection, punishment or abandonment. Mistakes are causes for learning.
{{Jon}}} when you find yourself getting sucked into the ‘doing’, take a moment to IMAGINE the ‘end’ you desire. Take but a moment to IMAGINE your result. You’ll be surprised how effective this works. I promise.
March 9, 2008 at 9:27 am |
IT got jumbled…oopsie…”moral” means chosen. the minute choice is negated, no ‘morals’ are possible, only amorals. (Answering machine & dicta phone would be examples of a-moral behavior.)
March 27, 2008 at 4:28 pm |
This is a terrific conversation! I’d love to have you all over to my house for coffee or tea to continue it in person.
In adding my two cents worth I will not be saying anything substantially different than what many have already said. I moved away from any true belief in “right” and “wrong” a long time ago. Both judgments are totally relative and totally personal to each individual in each situation. What is “true” is EXPERIENCE. We are all aspects of God here in body to have experiences that will help God understand and define itself. Its all just a game; a wonderful magical game. So, have fun!
March 31, 2008 at 7:04 pm |
We decide we are wrong based on the level of pain the decision creates. If we’ve lived a life of abuse, the level of pain can be enormous before we decide to utter a version of the phrase, “there has got to be a better way!” If we are committed to finding a better way (one that is less abusive) we choose then to make a correction of that mistake. And, depending upon the criteria (or belief system) we’ve chosen to use for said correction we will ourselves to discover life or another the illusion of what we THINK life to be…further pain.
I call the repetitive need for pain to learn lessons, “The 2 X 4 Syndrome.”
AngllHugnU2
Author of IM with God