My 14 year old daughter asked me “If you are gay or lesbian or bisexual, can you still be a christian?”
My response was to ask her what she meant by gay, and what she meant by christian. Although she seemed reasonably clear that gay meant “you were born liking other guys” she was fuzzy to say the least about this troublesome christian word, giving up after something like “someone who believes is God and tries to live the way the bible says you should.”
I then asked her to pretend she was a christian, and answer the question herself. She proceeded to ask me straight back what the bible said about homosexuality. From this, I asked her if that meant that her basis (as a christian) for determining whether something is right or wrong was “what the bible says”, which got met with a mumbling sort of yes. As for me telling her what the bible says about homosexuality, I pointed out that it isn’t all that clear, as christians from both sides of the fence argue their viewpoint by each quoting different verses at each other (as they do for many other issues). So then I suggested we just pretend that the bible was crystal clear that being gay was wrong – what would she think then? This was greeted with more grumbling as she clearly did not want to agree with this, but also did not want to disagree with the bible.
Finally I asked her how people of other cultures and religions would resolve the same question. So this left her with the questions of not only how do you determine the “correct” message of the bible, but also even if you do, what difference does that make as there are lots of other “bibles” out there. How can she know whether or not the bible can be trusted as divinely authoritative, or whether it is just another religious book devised by man.
After all this which was way more thinking than she was expecting, she decided to leave it at that.
What would you say to her?
July 18, 2008 at 6:33 am |
I would tell her that to betray the authority of the Presence in her own Heart, never does result in anything worthwhile.
Is the issue SEX or is the issue LOVE? And that is the question that would ‘needle’ most fundamentalist Christians. The facts are, that parenting skills have NOTHING TO DO with our sexual choices.
Is the focus on Spiritual Values? Which are genuine qualities and substance of character: Tolerance, Acceptance, & Understanding.
Is the focus on Self Righteousness, which carries the tone of condemnation, rejection and attitudes of arrogance and supremacy?
The real Key is our emotional state. When we’re emotionally insecure, then what other people do or not do is of primary importance.
It is for the purpose of emotionally being fed and nurtured that a preacher preaches. The preacher being fed by and through all those that listen. Like the planet Jupiter….made of up a lot of hot air and collecting satellites that are dependent upon it. A Preacher HAS to have someone to preach TO. It is an emotional state of dependency.
Where a teacher has no emotional stake in who learns or how much. A Teacher teaches, those interested and respects the choices of those not interested.
I would tell my little girl to listen to the tone of what is being expressed and I would tell her to listen for Spiritual Values of character in expression and, teach her how to recognize empty vessels when she hears one.
July 18, 2008 at 6:25 pm |
I’ve given your question {{jon}} a great deal of consideration. The one thing I neglected to mention I did, because….
I didn’t think you’d like it AT ALL.
The very best thing you could do for your daughter would be to BURN THAT OLD BOOK right before her very eyes.
Free her from shackles of limitation BEFORE she gets used to living in them
July 18, 2008 at 7:17 pm |
Hi Sue-Ann,
I hear ya, but my underlying aim with Jess as she enters her teenage years is to encourage and teach her how to think for herself and arrive at her own conclusions, rather than those of her father. To burn the bible (or anything else for that matter) in front of her is the equivalent of shoving my beliefs down her throat, the very behaviour I am wishing her to avoid! In the final count, right now I’m not so concerned what answers she comes up with or what model she adopts, but more that she learns from me that it is ok to think critically, ok to change your truth as you learn and grow, and ok to not being bossed around by others who claim to “know the truth.”
Jon
July 19, 2008 at 4:17 am |
I understand where you’re coming from {{jon}} and I would agree….
IF her mind and heart HAD NOT ALREADY BEEN POLLUTED/CONTAMINATED by her father’s ideas.
Which is revealed by her asking the question. It expresses prejudice, bias and attitudes if supremacy and in one so young….
Here’s a question for you…
Instead of working on her, how about working on your own ACCEPTANCE and TOLERANCE for what ever choices she may make?
July 19, 2008 at 6:05 am |
Ask our Heart {{jon}} and be CLEAR about where you are coming from.
Are you feeling FEAR for her or are you feeling TRUST in her OWN Spiritual Presence to carry her through whatever…?
For what I am seeing, is a projection of your own self doubt upon your child.
July 24, 2008 at 4:04 pm |
“If you are gay or lesbian or bisexual, can you still be a christian?”
What would I say to her?
Yes.
July 24, 2008 at 6:23 pm |
Hi Doug,
Given that she is now 14, I think as a parent I need to slowley begin stepping away from telling her my version of the truth and begin more and more to instead help her think through the questions and come up with her own answers. The problem with giving her a yes or no answer, is that even amongst those who choose to label themselves christians there will be a mix of yes and no answers.
Jon
July 25, 2008 at 4:08 am |
i think you did a good job, jon. if she chooses to use the bible, she won’t be doing it with mindless obedience. and if she chooses to burn it, she can do it for rational reasons rather than angry or fearful ones. i think this kind of thing is the hardest part of parenting. i always want to say,”fer cryin out loud, i’m still workin on it myself!!”
July 25, 2008 at 9:27 am |
Ha ha ha! Tinka, I’m with you! That last line is hilariously true!
My kids have had a lifetime of this answer – ” Well, some people believe… and others believe… what do you think?” Often the answer for me, personally, is ” I don’t believe it matters. All that is required of us is that we LOVE. We don’t need to burn anyone’s book. Nor do we need to agree/disagree with them. We just need to LOVE them.”
Besides that, why do we need to have a definition of what someone else is?? (as in “Is he/she a Christian if…?”) We can never see into someone elses heart. The only question should be – “IF I want to be a Christian and I am gay, can I be?” And the only person who can answer that question is the individual who is asking it of themselves.
July 25, 2008 at 9:29 am |
That emoticon isn’t meant to be there! !
It snuck in when I closed the bracket!
July 29, 2008 at 5:20 am |
Labels suck. Gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, Christian, athiest, whatever. They just suck.
It doesn’t matter what we label ourselves, there will always be a mixture of yes and no. We all base our answers on personal experience and understanding.
Unfortunately, the crowd of Christians who condemn has had a much louder voice than the Christians who love, and has tainted the world view towards Christianity. To much focus on the Christian and not enough focus on Jesus and what he taught us.
August 1, 2008 at 2:21 am |
Hi Jon, long time no see!
Bravo on your course of action! Since last we “spoke”, I became a new parent and had a little boy. I know that one day my son’s going to have to form his own sexuality when he becomes a young man. I don’t care what his ultimate preference is as long as it’s based on love, self-respect, and mutual nourishment for their souls.
The Bible-for the most part-cannot address sexuality as we know it. The book was written by a patriarchal, long-dead culture that cannot speak to our 21st Century CE culture. The only portion that can speak is what Jesus spoke on regarding love and that we love others as we love ourselves. Jesus never gave proscriptions against non-heterosexual monogamous love.
Peace!
August 1, 2008 at 5:15 pm |
Hi Dangerous,
What great news! I think parenting is one of the most worthwhile activities anyone can ever do, and I’m sure you are going to be a terrific Dad.
I agree that times have changed and the culture of today is so very different from the culture of the times and places where the bible texts were written. It is interesting that (amongst many other topics) Jesus also did not have a single word to say about masturbation and yet every single day I get 4 or 5 hits on this blog with people searching for “christianity masturbation sin” or something like that. Your use of the word prescriptions is interesting, in that Jesus actually gave very very few prescriptions about anything, but rather the guiding principle of “what woulf love do?”
Anyway, great to see you are still alive and kicking and a Father!
Jon
PS: I suppose I should warn you that the little buggers can be very noisy, dirty, disruptive and expensive, but we love them anyhow.
August 8, 2008 at 12:31 pm |
Hmmm, I think you did a wonderful Job that led her to form her own conclusions. What I would say to your precious daughter is what I have said to my Girls. That although the Bible has Words of God in it, it is not THE word of God as some Christians believe. I told my girls that we need to understand that the views presented in the bible are just that, opinions and perspectives, the issue is when we say that God said this and God said that so it must be. Finally as I noticed my babies eyes are glassing over, I said “Sweet Heart, Just follow the truth that is in you, the Warm voice of love, therein is God” hugs then follow.
August 9, 2008 at 12:25 pm |
Evigilo, Wonderful words – thank you.
February 3, 2009 at 10:56 pm |
Jon, just spending a few minutes on your blog this morning. I am touched by what you wrote. I am leaving christianity, at least the fundamentalist strain of it. My oldest child is 10 years old and my aim is to teach him how to think for himself. I think you did a great job of that with your daughter, and that is exactly right. You were not just teaching her what to think about the bible, but how to step outside of her own perspective and understand others better, reason and compassion together.
February 4, 2009 at 8:41 am |
atime,
Thank you for you kind words. There is an interesting transition as the kids move from their chiildhood to teenage years, and us parents having to move with that change. Gone are the days where they simply accept what we say as true simply because we have said it, replaced with prickly challenges and a piercing ability to spot any cracks in adults armour. Conversations with God has freed me from the idea that kids must believe correctly in Christianity to the idea that they can choose to be whoever they want – now Who Do You Choose To Be?
I wish you well on your journey!
Jon